Social Media & Relationships Part II: Lessons in Unnatural Selection

There is something strange going on in the dating world.

It is challenging my perception of romance. It is infringing on dreams of a magical meeting, the perfect first date and the discovery period couples go through when falling in love. Consequently, it is another part of the social media world that I just can't get behind.

This unnatural abomination invading people's love lives is Plenty of Fish.

A couple of years ago I was going through one of those periods where I didn't have anyone to like. There were some guys I had gone on a few dates with, but none of them held any real interest for  me. I was complaining about this for about the 1000th time when @isaiditnowdeal asked me if I had tried online dating.

Until then I have to admit that the thought had never really occurred to me. I was aware that it existed, but I was naive enough to think that people didn't really do it. Not in my hometown anyway. That was the first thing I was wrong about.

The second thing was that online dating was for the desperate. It was for people who never turned eyes on the street, who were too shy to talk to people in person, who basically didn't have a chance of ever meeting someone in real life. Again, before you rush to flood my comments section with nasty messages, I learned that I was wrong about this too.

As it turns out, there were lots of other people that I knew on POF. Lots of people I know to be normal. To have good jobs and be genuinely good people. While this was intimidating at first, it was also encouraging to know that maybe there are some good people on there.

So I put together a profile. I have @isaiditnowdeal check it out for me and he approves! And off I go into the online dating world...

Attack!!!!

Holy shit, I am bombarded with messages, instant messages, my inbox is filling up and I'm being added as a favourite by people I've never seen or talked to. I have no idea what to make of it. All I know is that there are too many messages and not enough time to read them all, nevermind respond.

It's not in my nature to ignore someone who sends me a message. At first I try to write them all back, even if it's just to say "thanks very much for your interest, but I don't think we are a good fit". But I quickly learn that there is just no way to keep this up. There is no room for talking to people just to see if they are an interesting person and it just doesn't show in their profile. And let me tell you, most guys just don't put in the effort....

So I'm am stuck picking out guys from photos and vague profiles and feel mean right off the bat for not responding. This is not the dating world I grew up in...

Lesson 1 for the ladies: Bring out your inner Bitch. There is no room (or time) for nice responses on POF

Lesson 1 for the guys: It's not you, it's everyone else! Do a good job on your profiles. We're not ignoring you, you're lost in the cyber sea.

Oh Grammar, why have they forsaken you?

I'm overwhelmed by the bombardment in my first few days. I'm  hesitant about the whole online dating idea in general. I'm flat out offended by the appalling grammar in the messages I'm receiving! Seriously, WTF!!!

Maybe I'm spoiled. Maybe surrounding myself with people who know how to read and write has given me an unrealistic view of the society that I live in. But when I get:

"hey yor very prety, what's good? must get tons of email, i'm not sure how to approch this, loogin to chat sometime, seriosly wow. your beautiful."

What am I supposed to do???

I think this is a nice message but I can't see past my anger at the savage butchery of the English language. Intentions may be good, but I’m just not built to be able to overlook it. I send back corrected versions of a message in hopes that they will be able to learn for the next person they send one to.

Lesson 2 for the ladies: Learn to fucking write!

Lesson 2 for the guys: Learn to fucking write!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Plenty of Fish Professionals

At this point I’m thinking POF may not be for me, but I’m not ready to give up on it’s promise to unite singles the province over. But the POF professionals are seriously starting to bug me.

If you’ve been on the site, you know them but the first message. They are the ones who write “My name’s x, add me to Facebook” or “You have MSN? My email is imadick@hotmail.com”

I’ve already reduced myself to not being courted and to selecting guys not because I’m interested, but from a lame display like they are packages of hamburger at the grocery store. But now they don’t even have the courtesy to ask my name?!?!? They just assume that by messaging me I’m going to be excited to have them as a Facebook friend! I must need more MSN contact, right?

Wrong.

These guys have been on so long that they think they can just skip the preliminaries and cut to the next level. Sorry boys, not this chick.

They also don’t take the time to write original messages. For them, copy and paste is the way to go. Most times they are obvious, but every once in a while you get a wildcard. One time a POF professional writes me a rap song. I don’t write back (the grammar is atrocious) but later find out that he had sent the same rap to a friend of mine and just changed the name.

Lesson 3 for the ladies: They do this because they are having success with some of you. Please stop enabling this behaviour.

Lesson 3 for the guys: Just stop.

Crazies

So, I’ve been on POF for about a month without much success. What I have acquired are four brand new stalkers! One guy adds me to his favourites and messages me everyday without fail even though I haven’t written him back a single time. I call him my diligent stalker. Every time I log on, even after hiding my profile, there is a brand new message from him waiting.

Then there is my angry stalker. He sends me two messages and I don’t write back. Then he starts sending me angry messages and I don’t write back. Then he sends me apologetic messages and I don’t write back. Then he sends me more angry messages...and they cycle continues.

My ad man stalker is my favourite. He messages me to say he saw me at a party and hoped he could get to know me better. I don’t remember him but I tell him that I was actually interested in someone else at the party and thanks anyway. Then I find out that he actually wasn’t with the party, he was by himself in the bar and just saw me there but thought it was a good way in. Even though this guy is creepy, I do have to give him credit for creativity, because every time after that he sends me a sales pitch for why I should go out with him. “You should go out with me because I would bring you flowers before every date. You should go out with me because I would take you go-karting. You should go out with me because all my friends think I’m awesome....” And the list goes on. I get no less than 50 messages from this guy, all with unique reasons.

Then there is my just plain creepy stalker. This guy finds me on POF and I talk to him for a bit. Then he starts commenting on things that I haven't told him which creeps me out. Then he finds out my email address and starts sending me emails and adds me to MSN. When I found out who it was I blocked him. Then he finds me on Facebook and starts messaging me about mutual friends we have and how they can vouch for what a good guy he is. I ask him repeatedly to stop messaging me but he just wants me to give him a chance and he’s going to prove to me how great he is. So far, he has not discovered my address, thank God.

Lesson 4 for the ladies: Block your stalkers early.

Lesson 4 for the guys: Stalking is a turnoff. You aren’t helping yourself.

Who are you again?

One thing for the stalkers is that I remember them. That’s more than I can say for most of the other guys on POF.

Another side effect of the cyber sea. I can’t keep their names straight, remember what we talked about, and unless they have a distinct look I’m not even likely to remember who they are. Maybe we did have an awesome chat, or he said something witty or whatever, but I don’t have time to go through a bunch of back messages to find out.

Sadly, POF breeds shallowness and unless guys are seriously hot or extremely original, chances aren’t all that good.

Lesson 5 for the ladies: Be extremely selective. Or get a notebook and start writing down details.

Lesson 5 for the guys: Be better than amazing. Or message homely girls.

A good chat must mean sex!

So after all this I think I think I've found a guy or two worth talking to. They're cute, seem nice after the first few messages and I'm enjoying our chats. Except......

Instead of asking me out they're asking if I have a webcam. FML. All of a sudden those sweet messages I was getting are now filled with comments about how sexy I am and what they'd like to do to me and questions about what I'm wearing.

I'm sorry. I'm not really experienced with this whole online dating thing. I didn't realize that "So, where did you grow up" was code for I want to get naked. My bad.

Lesson 6 for the ladies: Again, this must be your fault. Please stop enabling.

Lesson 6 for the guys: If this is you, I've got not so much a lesson as general statement: I hate you.

This is what I'm up against?

At some point I visit @isaiditnowdeal and complain to him of my woes. He's having better luck than I am. He brings of the profile of the latest girl he is talking to but I'm distracted by all the other profiles.

You see, being a chick looking for a male, I don't get to see what my competition looks like. This is my first glance into the male world of POF. And I see.....

Lots of cleavage. Lots of webcam photos and fish faces in bathroom mirrors. Lots of make up and short skirts and slutty poses. And even more cleavage.

And to think that I actually put in the time to come up with an interesting profile and post pics that represent who I am when I should have just been showing my tits!

I now understand why a good chat means sex.

Lesson 7 for the ladies: Hey, if it's getting you what you want and it works for you, rock on. If it isn't, try being classy.

Lesson 7 for the guys: These are the girls you need to message about what they're wearing! Stick to them and you'll get better results.

And now for the date

So a few guys manage not to offend me and I agree to go out for coffee or dinner with them. I'm scared shitless. What if they're a psycho? @isaiditnowdeal assures me that everything will be ok, I'm in a public place, what's the worst that can happen?

Well, one guy, after a pretty good coffee date, asks me to go home with him. No second date for him. 

Another guy seems pretty cool until he mentions that the dog he had in all his pics died and he had it stuffed. 

But the most memorable guy is also my breaking point with POF. He was sweet and I enjoyed chatting with him. He told me about his great job and how athletic he was. He was super cute in his pics and I was really looking forward to our lunch date.

Well I get dolled up and head out to the restaurant. I look around and don't see him anywhere. At first I think he's stood me up. But, oh no, some strange guy is is waving at me. And now he is calling my name. Dear God. 

He's at least 15 years older than his photos. He is much, much heavier. I seriously don't know what to do. I frantically message @isaiditnowdeal for help, who counsels me to order some nachos, be pleasant, and leave. So I do just that. He's no longer working at the job he told me about. He doesn't play basketball anymore because he blew out his knee. I nod politely. 

At the end of the date he leans over to kiss me. I turn my head an get an awkward sloppy cheek kiss. POF has scarred me. 

Yeah, it was an awful date. But I was most upset for being lied to. Maybe I'm too naive, but I have no idea how he figured that I wouldn't notice and extra 15 years and 40 pounds. 

He continues to message for a while and I ignore them. I hide my POF profile.  

Lesson 8 for the ladies: If he's not what he says he is, run if you can. 

Lesson 8 for the guys: Don't bother lying. WE CAN SEE YOU!

I hate POF. I hate everything about it. But I know it does work for some people. If it works for you, awesome. But it's definitely not for me.

If you've got POF stories on either side, I'd love to hear them.  

P.S. I logged on for a refresher while writing this post and the first ad I saw said "Still Single at 28?" Fuck you POF.

Social Media & Relationships Part I: Facebook Fucks You

I don't consider myself stuck in the past. Yeah, yeah, I much prefer a guy ask me out and pay for the first date, etc. But in general, in life, I consider myself pretty modern.

I'm all for spending my hard-earned money on things that make my life more fun and easy, like new video game systems or dishwashers or, hopefully one day, a robot that will cook and do laundry. I can totally get behind a CGI movie as long as the plot is sound. I don't resist change.

I'm completely for working mothers and men doing the cooking. I'm for all types of relationships. I think a woman should be able to sleep with as many men as she fucking feels like it and not give a damn what people think. (Sidenote When called a slut on Desperate Housewives, Vanessa Williams replied, sarcastically, Oh No! Now chip won't take me to the prom!~ always makes me giggle).

And I embrace social media. I fought for others at work to embrace it, with some success (although, admittedly, that success probably had little to do with my nagging). I am a Facebook addict and there is no help for me (Seriously?? Facebook is still not a recognized word???).

But when it comes to social media and the dating world I just can't get behind it.

I hear stories about people who have met online. I know a couple getting married that met on Lavalife. @AngieMmmmm and @isaiditnowdeal met on Twitter. So it does happen.

But in my experience, social media does more to harm relationships than good for them.

I was thinking about this a lot as I watched a few friends' relationships deteriorate over Facebook, which this post will be devoted to.

My friend's girlfriend went down south a while back. She came back and posted in her status "It's so good to be home!!!!"

My friend posts: "Miss X is back! Can't wait to see my girl!!!"

Sweet, right?

Then Miss X posts pictures. And a Mr. X started to appear in a lot of them. And with the Facebook world watching, the following ensued:

Miss X's status: Wow

Friend's status: What the Fuck!

Miss X's status: I did not need to come back to this shit

Friend's status: Funny how a girl flies down south twice in three months and the same dude is in all her pics. Yeah, real classy.

Miss X's status: Is this for real? Man, some people have some serious trust issues.

Friend's status: Done.

And moments later in my news feed: Friend is no longer in a relationship with Miss X, followed by Miss X is now listed as single.

It was pretty funny. 

But, in my friend's defense, Miss X is now engaged to the boy down south, so in this case FB caught a cheater. Which, occasionally, it's been known to do. Anyone else recall the guy who's wife found pics of his second wedding on FB while they were still married?

Problem is, Facebook by design can create cheaters. On top of that, it's often used to seek out cheaters that aren't really there.

Hear me out. In high school you were totally in love with your sweetheart. Everything was wonderful and you were going to get married, but, as is the fate of many high school relationships, you both went to college and drifted apart. Typical, even if a little bit wholesome and cutesie.

Years later, when you've moved on with your life and lost all contact you meet someone and fall in love (or something like it). Things are great. 

And then you get a message. The ex has found you on FB. And they look good. And they live in your city or are visiting in town. And they want to get together for drinks.

Yeah, yeah. You're a good chick/guy. Whatever. Maybe you'll go, maybe you won't. Maybe something will happen, maybe it won't. But if it does, it's fair to say that FB created a situation that otherwise likely may never have happened. 

Sure there is e-mail and phone, even handwritten letters before all that. But Facebook makes it easy to find that person you've always wondered about in a way like never before. It makes it easy to chat with them with out your significant other knowing. Makes it easy to send dirty messages and erase the evidence.

Good old FB, friend to cheaters the world over.

But the other problem is people already know this. And they check.

Another friend of mine, let's call him R, was extremely insecure. His girlfriend, M, had cheated on him in the past, but they had broken up for a year and were trying to give it another go. They had their issues right from the start (they will be featured in another post on toxic relationships), but FB was their downfall.

See, everyday he would come home and check who's wall she commented on. Who's status's she liked. Go through pictures and demand to know who every guy in them was. He would get paranoid saying she friended someone and now it's not showing so she must be hiding it. He would ask me about guys I had as mutual friends with her and try to find out how they knew each other. And she was no better.

The last straw in their relationship was when she left her Facebook open and a guy sent her a chat message. Turns out he was an old friend, but he had no idea who it was. He pretended to be her and came on to him. He responded and he hit the roof. She had to be cheating on him with this guy.

According to her (and for the record, I believe her), the guy always liked her but they hadn't spoken in a long time. He had messaged her because he just broke up with his girlfriend and was, in fact, looking to hook up. Given the chance, she would have told him no. But the damage was done and the fallout caused the end of the relationship.

As I said, their relationship was toxic. Ending it was probably a good thing, and really, his actions weren't really all that sane. They had no trust, and trust is essential in having a successful relationship.

But don't tell me you've never looked to see who that guy/girl who wrote something on your wo/man's wall was....never creeped an ex or their old friend of the opposite sex to see how hot they are...never seen something in a wall post or in a photo that left you feeling a little bit of doubt....

Yeah, relationships, Facebook is not your friend. 

But then again, it does have it's advantages. How else would the morons of the world know they were in a relationship to begin with without changing their status?

Post TBC next week with good times on Plenty of Fish. I've got some fun ones ;)

Reply: Juggling People is an Art: Learn it, Learn it Well

 

There are rare times when @isaiditnowdeal and I agree on stuff? This isn't one of those times. In fact, it's posts like these that make me realize how fundamentally different we are.


Let me state first off that most people aren't juggling multiple people because they don't want to, not because of any of the reasons @isaiditnowdeal outlined in his post. They think it's wrong or whatever. Not saying I have a problem with it, just putting it out there.

Juggling people isn't a conscious thing for me. I don't set out to date 10 people and narrow it down to one (I still think that is an incredibly stupid dating strategy), and I would never invest so much time and effort into juggling them, as he has outlined in his post.

With that said, I am rarely ever talking to/seeing just one person. I'm not actively seeking out multiple people or anything, things just happen that way. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's a law of the universe that there is either no one at all to be interested in, or there are multiple people.

Example given: A guy that I was really interested in moves away for a work project. A guy I was sleeping with off and on for years pretty well loses interest. A guy I met and thought might be nice (or at least help pass the time) turns out to be a douche (see post here). Left with.....fuck all! And bored as hell. The periods where there is no one to be interested in are the worst.

But then.....I meet a new guy, who I think is really hot and is a really good guy too. He seems interested and we start chatting. Then I start hanging out more with a friend I really get along with and have always enjoyed being around. Get drunk, sleep with him, and guess what? He's also great in bed. Somehow, without my knowledge or consent, things start to feel coupley. Maybe, just maybe, this could go somewhere....

But, of course, work project guy (AKA Guy 1) moves home. And asks me out.

Unlike @isaiditnowdeal, I don't consciously set out to date multiple people for something to do.  I wouldn't find myself juggling people based on this.

But it doesn't mean I don't juggle people (although I don't like that term. You're such a callous bastard sometimes @isaiditnowdeal). And it doesn't mean I don't do it well.

So, with that in mind, here are my responses to @isaiditnowdeal's  comments, or whatever they are.

1) I'm afraid I would confuse the person with another, and not remember what we talked about.

Yeah...I'm not. I have a pretty long memory, but that's probably not why I don't confuse them. One of the things about dating people you actually like, is that you tend to pay attention to what they say. In the instances that I have dated a guy who I'm not into during my "I have nothing better to do phases" I would often find myself mixing them up with others in my head.  Not keeping track of what I they tell me, forgetting dates, etc. But in those situations it's because I just don't care. I certainly don't care enough to go through the trouble of planning out my questions or keeping notes in a little black book. And if I don't care, what difference does it make if I call a guy by the wrong name?

I'll confess, and I'm pretty sure this is really just a guy thing, that if you just want to find a way to sleep with multiple people than this would probably help. Keep track of details, girl thinks you're interested and pay attention, girl is more likely to sleep with you. On the other hand, girls don't work like this. I actually (not pretend!) pay attention to the guys I'm interested in, whether it's one or several. And I don't sleep with guys I'm not interested in. So this point is useless to me, and I would venture to say many girls out there.

2) I don't know where I would find the time to see all of these people.

Again, I think waaaay too much thought has gone into this one. Or maybe way too much effort on @isaiditnowdeal's part. I barely have enough time to date anyone, let alone multiple people. But if I'm going to make the effort, you better believe it's not going to be for someone that I don't care about or just for something to do. 

If I do like multiple people, and want to see them all, I'll try to see them when I can. But, by doing this I am well aware that it's not something that can be sustained long term. Actually, barely even in the short term. The guy will either get pissed cause I don't spend enough time with them, or one will win out and I'll find myself spending more time with them and less and less with the others.  I won't change my schedule or cut into time with my family and friends to keep up relationships with multiple guys that really don't mean anything anyway. I'm much more likely to go out with them, go with it, see where it takes me. The rest plays out on it's own.

3) What happens when I run into one of them, while out with another?

@isaiditnowdeal did make one good point when he said "juggling multiple people isn't about sleight of hand. You don't want to make yourself invisible. Instead, it's about sleight of tongue. What you say, how you say it, and when you say it, which will determine how effect of a multiple dater you will be." 

Even though I don't like the way he stated it, it's pretty well true. But in my case, it's more about being honest and upfront. 

If I'm dating multiple people it's important that they understand that we are not exclusive. It's important that they understand that until we agree that we're together, they are not my boyfriend and are not to treat me like they are in public. I don't go through all the trouble about fretting the run-in. I've actually been in the same place with more than one guy and as long as everyone knows where they stand, things always seem to work out. 

Anyways, I guess @isaiditnowdeal and I are pretty different. I think he enjoys the plotting and scheming where for me it's just a headache. As with my approach to most things, I just go with it, feel good and have fun. Que sera sera, whatever will be, will be. 

In my current case me and my friend will continue to hang out. But we talk openly and honestly all the time about where we stand and he doesn't pressure me at all. He's ok (for now) with not being exclusive. I'll probably go out with Guy 1 if he asks me again soon. And I'm sure I won't go long without seeing the other guy either. 

But I'm pretty sure I know the end of this story already. And I've even surprised myself :)

Reply: Five Things You Need To Know About Having An Open Relationship

Open relationships. I got nothing.

Nah, I'm lying. But I have to confess that I have never been in one. Not an official one anyway. But I do know people who are and I am always curious about how they make it work. 

See, I very much like the idea of an open relationship in concept. In application....well, the jury is still out. I would love for there to be a guy who would be my boyfriend -- comes home with me at the end of the night if we're out together, takes me out on dates, people know we are together, and have an emotional connection -- but didn't always have to be there. 

Selfish? Maybe. But I'm just not the jealous type. And I think if we discussed having an open relationship and both agreed to it, I would be ok with my partner sleeping with other girls, with or without me, as long as it worked both ways. 

Thing is, I haven't met any guys that can handle that. Sure, they're all for me letting them sleep around if I don't mind, but the thought of me doing it? They just can't cope. 

So I often wonder, even as I read @isaiditnowdeal's post, even as I see friends who are doing it successfully (if you can call it that), if they cause more happiness or trouble. 

So, where as I don't have any expert tips for you (I know, I'm shocked too!) I'll share five things that I have noticed about open relationships that lead to either their success or demise. 

1) Communication is Essential -- Having an open relationship never works unless both partners are open with each other. I agree with @isaiditnowdeal completely on that front. Clear guidelines must be established and agreed upon before entering into it. Do you always play together or is it ok to do things separately? Do you need to discuss being with someone else with your partner beforehand or is it fine to tell them after the fact? Can you go home with someone else if your partner is there or do they need always be included?Once the ground rules are laid, make sure you talk to your partner as things occur. Nothing will destroy a relationship faster, open or otherwise, than keeping secrets.

2) Know Why You Are Doing It - @isaiditnowdeal is bang on with this one. I know a girl in an open relationship who believes her partner was amazing. She says he treats her good and takes care of her and therefore deserves to be treated every once in a while. But although she never says it, and often plays too, it bothers the fuck out of her. She often has to repeat to herself that he deserves this and he loves her, etc. She'll leave the room if she knows he's got his eye on someone else, not to give him space, but so that he doesn't see how much it bothers her. They've been together for a long time, so maybe it doesn't bother her as much as it seems to. But I'm pretty confident that's she's not in it because it's making her happy. And doing it for that reason can cause jealousy, resentment and self-esteem issues. 

Same with the want to spice things. You may think it sounds great at the time, but you have to be able to deal with the aftermath.

3) Don't Have Double Standards - This goes to what I discussed above and why I've never been in one. And I don't think it comes across at all in @isaiditnowdeal's post. In fact, not having seen him in an open relationship, I really don't think he'd be good at this. 

If you are in an open relationship that consists of more than asking someone to join you now and then, it's important to be accepting of your partner if you expect them to do the same for you.  I sometimes see open relationships where it is agreed upon that this can take place, but when the subject is actually brought up (I want to sleep with this person, still ok with you?) one party isn't comfortable anymore. Concept vs application. It works both ways, but in my case it's the guy who gets upset. I was hooking up with a guy who I wasn't committed to, but could always talk about other people he slept with or went on dates with. But when it came to me doing the same he got really jealous. It's extremely selfish to think you can ask a person to only be with you and then think you can be with other people. It has to work both ways.

4) Monogamy isn't as important as honesty - In @isaiditnowdeal's experience with his ex, she said it was ok if he went and had fun without her. He considered this cheating. I don't see it that way at all. If she is ok with it, and he is honest with her about what he does, then it should be fine. If it was another situation and both parties are comfortable with the other being with someone else then it isn't cheating based on how they define their relationship. But they should be able to talk about it openly and honestly. If my partner was out with someone else I would much rather know about it than find out he kept it a secret. Otherwise, I'm good. All I ask is that he talk to me, wrap it up, and keep both of us safe. I'm sure I'd enjoy hearing about it later.

5) Don't neglect your partner - This is important in both scenarios. If you are playing together, it is important not to make your partner feel irrelevant. They come first, always. And from my own experience being an addition to an open relationship, that's ok and how it should be. I actually feel more uncomfortable if I'm getting much more attention than a person's other half. And I'm certainly not interested in participating in any drama later. 

If your other half has an eye on someone else, and you have agreed this is ok, it still shouldn't take place while you are together somewhere as a couple. I hate competing for a guy's attention, and should never have to compete for my own boyfriend's. And it wouldn't be ok with me for him to choose to go home with another girl over me. With that said, if we talked about it after I wouldn't be adverse to them hooking up another night. Maybe one where I'm "busy"too. 

@isaiditnowdeal has some good advice in his post, even if I don't agree with all of it. He also has decidedly more experience in the area than me. But, hey, I'm usually right more than he is. And I haven't given up on the dream.

The Butterfly Effect

It's been a pretty tough week.

Right now there is this great guy who wants to be with me. He's kind and he's fun and really he's everything you could ask for in a boyfriend. He would treat me really great and he would never cheat on me. He even opens car doors! He's patient and considerate and we've been friends for a while so he knows me really well and accepts all my craziness.

I know you're thinking oh, boohoo, go cry your eyes out you whiny princess. But seriously, it's has caused me an amazing amount of stress. Partly because I know I'm going to have to make a decision soon. And he's trying not to pressure me and says I can date whoever I want until I figure things out, but his patience is not going to last forever and the last thing I want to do is lose a friend.

There are a million reasons to date this guy, some of them listed above. They even outweigh some of the reasons I shouldn't, like he is my friend and I have to worry about who loses our friends in the divorce if we break up, or that I don't see myself settling down at this point in my life.

But there is one thing that is really holding me back. And it may be selfish and stupid but I can't seem to get past it.

He doesn't give me butterflies.

I know that sounds stupid but I can't help it. When I was dating as a teenager it was much more common. Obviously none of them worked out cause I'm single today, but it was one of those things that you just take for granted. As an adult it's just not that easy. Guys that give me butterflies are few and far between.

But there have been a few. There have been a couple that make me nervous when I see them. That I always want to look my best for. That I really like to see or talk to on any given day. When I do, it's butterflies.

I've been lucky in the last while, because after getting out of a five-year relationship five years back  I spent the first three thinking that it just wasn't going to happen. I dated, or slept with guys who I was attracted to and stuff but it's not the same thing. But then, just like that, I met a guy who gave me serious butterflies. It was great, especially because it happened at a time where I had pretty much given up all hope if feeling that way. I had a crush! And it was awesome. 

It wasn't the last time either. A while back I not/dated a guy for a while. No, that isn't a typo but it was one of those "it's complicated" statuses on Facebook (not that I would change my FB status). It was never exclusive, actually he was a douche. And none of my friends really liked him, although I pretty sure no one ever told him that to his face. But for months we fucked every week and talked every night and right from the first day I met him he gave me butterflies.

The new guy often tells me he doesn't want to be that guy. That he won't hurt me or cheat or anything like that. But what he, and several other friends, never understood about me was that I wasn't doing it for those reasons. I didn't need the relationship. I wasn't looking for commitment. I was in it for the butterflies, simple as that. And there is a lot of stuff that I would do or put up with if that's what I'm getting in return. Twisted, I know.

I know some people are thinking that those butterflies don't last forever. Maybe that's true. But I've had some pretty long term ones. Even if they don't, shouldn't it be important to start a relationship with excitement and interest? To not have to work at it so hard right at the start?

In the last few years I've haven't met many guys who gave me butterflies. In fact, it's pretty rare.The ones  I have live away or have girlfriends so it hasn't gotten me very far. But I know it happens and if I never planned on settling down right now anyway isn't it something I should wait for?

Anyways, if it is I'll probably be passing up something that could be amazing. Is it worth it?  Am I being completely stupid about this?

I have no fucking idea.

How Do You Want To Be Shut Down?

 

Are you wearing this t-shirt? Cause apparently I am.

Sadly, this post has nothing to do with Valentine's Day. I actually started much before but haven't gotten around to finishing it till now. But on that note, it is also I Love Nova Scotia day!!! And Nova Scotia guys are one reason, even if it's just for the entertainment value they provide.

Ladies, I really am curious to know if this happens to you.

You're out with a guy and you're having a great time. You're getting along, flirting, maybe you've even kissed the guy at some point. The night is coming to an end and the guy asks if you want to go back to his place. You say you had a great time but you better not. Then the guy looks at you and says "Why not?"

I found myself in this situation a couple weeks ago. It was actually with a guy who kissed another girl on our first date so he already has a permanent place at the top of my guys I will never sleep with list. It wasn't a tough choice for me. 

But after apologizing and telling me he knew he was going to have to climb a mountain to get in my good books but he was going to do it (I'm not kidding) he still asked. And I don't think he's all that used to being told no.

He asked if I had something to do the next day. I said no. 

He asked if I was dating someone else. I said no.

Then he said "Well then, why not???"

This isn't the first time this had happened and it led me to consider two things.  

The first was...well...why not?

I like sex. A lot. And if I'm attracted to a guy and unattached I have absolutely no qualms about taking them home. Why would I? I'm sure we'd have a fantastic time. But it's never that easy, is it?

I know there are guys out there that have asked the dreaded question. Some back off, but others seriously don't understand why a girl won't go home with them. We'll, not-so-much gentlemen, as your Valentine's Day treat I'll fill you in (I know, I'm so sweet aren't I?)

There are only two reasons that the girl won't go home with you:

1) The girl is into you.

2) The girl is not into you.

Ok, it could also be her time of the month or she forgot to shave her legs or something, but aside from the physical, these are really the only reasons. 

So, let's take a look at number one from the ladies perspective.

You go out with this guy, you're hitting it off and you think, yeah, this guy seems great. Definitely worth getting to know. At the end of the night he makes the proposition. Sometimes the subtle we could have a drink at my place, other times the outright I want to sleep with you. 

In the wise words of Fergie, "I wonder if I take you home, would you still be in love baby?"

As messed up as that chick is, sometimes she gets it right. 

A girl may want to take the guy up on the offer but if she is really interested in him she shouldn't. I have nothing against first date sex in principle, but in application it  just doesn't work most of the time. 

A girl is more likely to want to have sex with a guy because she is into him. She thinks he's hot, sure, but personality is also extremely important and so is how the date went. If we had a great time, we may be more inclined to take the guy up on it. 

Problem is, there is a huge double standard at play. Guys don't want to date a girl they can sleep with right off the bat.  In other words, you give it up, they bail. It's not true in all cases, but it is in a significant about of them. Therefore, if we want to date a guy, us ladies are forced to say no, even if we really want to. 

I've slept with guys early on. Most times I don't care; sex is what I'm interested in. But twice I've been burned. I was really into two guys but slept with them too early (not at the same time, focus!). In both cases I would have been interested in more then screwing, and even though I did continue to see them, it was never more than that. And as much as we may wish it, there are just no do-overs. My close friend is convinced that this is the sole reason she doesn't have a boyfriend right now.

So, why not? Because I want to get to know you.

Problem is, if a guy is asking for sex on the first date, getting to know you is probably not his first priority anyway.

Then there is the number two scenario. You're just not into the guy. And just because he paid for your meal doesn't mean he's earned a spot in your bed. Maybe he has bad breath. Maybe he was rude to the waiter. Whatever it is, you don't have the desire to sleep with him.

Which leads me to the second thing I considered. 

If this is the case, guys, how the hell do you want us to answer your stupid question?Is there a preferred way you would like to be shut down?

Do you want to hear I'm really just not interested in having sex with you, or you at all?

What about  I don't find you attractive and I really didn't have a great time on this date?

How about You're just not doing it for me?

We could always go with the simple It's not me, it's you.

In the case stated above I told him that he hadn't even laced up his hiking boots, nevermind climbed a mountain. He said "but I am into you and you are into me. It'd be so good".

I said I really didn't think it was a good idea. He continued to push.

Finally I said I was on my period. He was like ok, great, maybe next time. Why didn't you just say so?

Dear God, why are men so stupid?

Read the reply by @isaiditnowdeal

Reply: Why Guys Fight: It's a Five Step Process ( Are You for Real????)

 

So I didn't finish this post last night and @isaiditnowdeal is going to kill me. But hopefully he'll understand that Gossip Girl was on and for some strange reason that I don't even fully understand myself I have an unhealthy interest in the lives of the Upper Eastsiders. I miss Chuck, Blair and Dan if I don't see them for too long. Not Serena and Nate though. They are  boring.

Also, I'm extremely uninspired to write this post. Why? It's crap. Five step process? Please. Maybe that's the way these things should go, but it's just not the case.

Anyways, I know all week you have either been waiting anxiously or couldn't give a fuck about what happened with Winnie the Pooh.

A couple of years ago on Halloween @isaiditnowdeal and I were downtown with some friends and his girlfriend at the time. We had been drinking for a while and were headed to Taboo to close the night out. The line up was really long and we were waiting for a while. There was a guy ahead of us in a Winnie the Pooh costume who was also waiting and the line hadn't moved. He eventually started saying that everyone should leave Taboo (there was no one inside the club, the line was just for show) and go somewhere else where they're not assholes. He shouted to everyone in line that we should all just go. He turned around to @isaiditnowdeal and said "Do you want to go?" in his friendliest, I'm-in-a-Winnie-the-Pooh-costume way.

It took several of us to hold @isaiditnowdeal back. Even after Winnie the Pooh left @isaiditnowdeal kept trying to leave the line and go after him.

What step of the five step process was that exactly?

Truth is that there are just some guys who enjoy fighting. Most men, the ones who are more evolved, can settle things without coming to blows. But for the ones who like to fight, how often do they go through all of those stages, not have the other guy back off and then still have to swing?

Answer: Very rarely. For @isaiditnowdeal I  guarantee it's less times than he has fought.

No, more often it's not that the a guy keeps hitting on the girl. It's that the boyfriend is so jealous and possessive he can't stand someone else showing his girl attention. He needs to feel like the "alpha male".

Girls think this is stupid.

Do we want you to help us out if we ask for it? Yes. If I guy is bothering us or scaring us might we need your help? Possibly. If the guy walks up to your girlfriend in front of you and says "Fuck your boyfriend, come home with me instead" then by all means, hit him. But, other than that there is really no reason for a guy to fight.

What should happen is: 

- Guy hits on girl.

- Girl says "I'm here with someone else" or, if boyfriend is close by, "this is my boyfriend." 

- Guy says "Oh, too bad." 

The end.

Girls shouldn't be letting random guys buy them drinks if they are there with their boyfriend. If you girlfriend doesn't acknowledge you standing there or lets some random get her drunk with you near, it's your girl who you need to have the problem with, not the other guy.

But, if the girl lets the guy know that she has a boyfriend upfront you need to back down, even if she chooses to finish her conversation at the bar. You need to trust that having some random guy hit on her is not going to convince her to leave you and go make out with that guy. It happens all the time when you're not around anyway.

But no, there are some guys that just can't do it. They need to drape their arm over the girl to mark their territory. They need to throw hard cold stares to intimidate the enemy. You may as well just take off your shirt and start beating on your chest. Drag your knuckles on the ground while you're at it. You look like an idiot and it's very unattractive.

The five step process is just a justification for fighting. It makes the male look good, but only according to a hypothetical situation that just doesn't happen or, at the very least, is not the reason most fights occur in bars. Basically it's bullshit.

So guys, instead of even trying to understand why some males just don't evolve past neanderthal, I leave you with five reasons that we ladies don't want you to fight.

1) It's Embarrassing - Whether you win or lose it's still embarrassing. You might think it's romantic or something but when all is said and done everyone is just staring at us chicks like we're the one who caused the fight. 

2) I wanted my date in the club, not the emergency room - If you seriously get hurt it just sucks. Then a perfectly good date winds up with us nursing your wounds or hanging out in the hospital. It's not fun. When us girls were looking for a fun night it didn't involve cleaning up someone's blood.

3) I don't like talking to police unless they are hitting on me - Actually, I don't even like them then. Unless they are really hot. Anyway, spending the night giving a statement sucks. If the other guy is seriously hurt it's awful explaining to the cops that our caveman boyfriends needed to assert male dominance and that's why the other guy cracked his skull on the curb.

4) Great, now this is my fucking problem - Did we ask to get kicked out or banned from the club? And surely we're now going to be fighting with you all night about your temper and possessiveness. What if you get arrested and now we don't have a way home? Seriously, we don't need this bullshit.

5) You don't trust me - That's the worst of it. What your feeling the need to beat someone to a pulp implies is that you don't trust us not to respond to their advances. If you did trust us you could rest assured that a guy showing us attention isn't going to mean we're going to run off with them. If you trust us and aren't possessive, there isn't any need fight.

I understand that sometimes a guy has to do what he has to do. Most guys aren't going to let a guy hit them and not hit back. They aren't going to take a guy calling them names or shouting horrible things about their girlfriends. Those are times when fighting can be justified.

But to hit a guy cause he thinks your girl is hot? That's just your insecurity talking....err, hitting, since you obviously aren't capable of settling it with words.

Instead, try this: Feel good cause your girl is hot. Be flattered that someone noticed. Feel reassured that your girl is with you. Then let go and enjoy your night.

Cause you know what's really hot? A guy that is secure enough and confident enough to know that other guy isn't a threat.  Confidence is sexier than playing the brute every time.

 Lastly, a present. Cause it's just too good not to link to :)


Read the original post by @isaiditnowdeal

Reply: Cheating: Liar Liar Pants on Fire

DAMN HIM!

This is probably the one post that @isaiditnowdeal is going to come off looking better than me. But hey, if  I'm gonna do this I may as well be honest right?

Yeah, I cheat. I couldn't tell you how many times. I've also been the chick on the side and I like it.

@isaiditnowdeal has been the one on the side many times and doesn't seem to care. It's interesting how he can say "I'm no one's moral compass" and then condemn himself and others for cheating. If you know how it made you feel and you are so against it, why encourage others to? And if you are ok with being one half of the issue, why say the other is so terrible? But, whatev. You can read his take here, but for now you get mine.

In junior high and high school there were lots of guys I dated that I didn't cheat on. There were some that I did. Kissed another guy at a party or stuff like that. Stupid stuff. I told my boyfriends after or got caught and it's amazing how many of them forgave me. But after that there are always trust issues and then there isn't any point. I usually ended it shortly after anyway because it just doesn't work. Even with second chances, there really isn't a clean slate. 

Anyway, then I met a guy and dated him for five years. And guess what? Didn't cheat on him once. Since then I've had three relationships. I've dated lots of people, but I am aware that I have commitment issues so I usually don't go there. I know I'm not ready to settle down. 

I have dated more than one person at a time. Or been seeing someone and slept with someone else. But unless there is a commitment in place I don't call that cheating. And I'm clear about not being exclusive. But three times I got it in my head that I should go for it and went all in. One time I didn't cheat. Two times I did. 

So why did I cheat? Why do people cheat at all? 

I see so many blog posts and articles on this issue that condemn cheaters. Even the authors that say they have cheated preface their story with something like "I know this is horrible but...". Whatever. 

There are theories that cheaters have low self-esteem. Huh. Last time I check my self-esteem was intact and pretty-damn high. 

Maybe cheaters are cowards? Not buying that one either. I don't like breaking up with guys (see post here) but it's not cause I'm scared to or I'm worried about hurting them. It's just bloody exhausting. 

There is also supposed to be a gene or something that makes you prone to cheating. Maybe I have that? I don't know. But my parents are still together and both say they have never cheated on each other so I probably didn't get it from them.

There is also the cheater's defense. I really didn't mean to, it just happened. I was really drunk. He/she seduced me. Blah blah blah. I promise you, as an adult, there was never a time that I cheated for any of these reasons. There was never a time I cheated because I didn't WANT to. There was never a time when I didn't fully understand the consequences of my actions.

So what then? 

My favourite relationship guru Greg Behrendt, says "if he's sleeping with someone else HE'S JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU".  (SIDE NOTE: Every single female should read this book. It's amazing. Don't see the movie, it blows. I'm Scarlett Johansson's character to a tee. Seriously, I would have made all the choices and did all the things she did. Actually, I'm pretty sure I have, so watching it is always a punch in the gut.)

But back to the book. He's just not that into you if he's cheating on you. Man, Greg is a genius! Is it that simple? Yup. Does it go for women too? Yup. 

The two guys I cheated on I just wasn't that into. And both times I was really into someone else. Couple that with opportunity and there you have it. 

In the first case, my relationship had turned sour. He was just a really negative, bitter person. I had broken up with him about a week before and then he called and convinced me to give it another go. Except then this guy I was really really attracted to wanted to hang out. You can guess how that story ended. Give you a hint: not with the boyfriend. 

The second time the guy really didn't do anything wrong. He was a nice guy. He liked me. Ok, he smothered me horribly. But he wasn't a bad guy or anything. I just wasn't that into him. So when the opportunity came to see a guy who I get turned on just thinking about, it didn't take much convincing. Could I have broken up with him first? Yeah, sure. But it would have been really awkward when it came to that point to say "Can you hang on a bit? I gotta call the boyfriend and break up. Give me about four hours."

There are some people you just really want to have sex with. It's true. I'd like to do Johnny Depp. Or either of the brothers on Supernatural. Or the angel for that matter (Love @mishacollins!). The point is there is always someone else you're going to want to have sex with somewhere. I'm looking for a guy who makes the choice easy. I don't buy once a cheater, always a cheater, because when I'm really in the relationship and really want my boyfriend, I don't cheat. 

But if I'm not, I may really enjoy being with that other person. And if there's fire, sometimes being a liar is the least of your cares.

Read the original post by @isaiditnowdeal

Do This and BUH-BYE: 7 Dealbreakers

Last week I went out with a guy. He's pretty cute, but not really my type so I said no the first few times he asked. I was also warned by several friends that he was scenario one . But eventually I did agree to go out with him, mostly because I wanted a guy to take me skating.

It started out pretty good. Skating went well, he bought me hot chocolate and then we went for a beer with some mutual friends. I had to leave to meet a friend but later we met up to go dancing. Even then things were going well. Until the end of the night. We split up in a bar, and he thought I had left so he did the logical thing...started making out with some girl on the dance floor. Which is where I found him later.

Well, he was really drunk. And it wasn't a random girl, he knew her. And he thought that I had left because I was gone so long. All this he explained while asking if we could go out again.

It's not that I really liked him or even cared that he made out with another girl. I don't. But I've never gone on a date where the guy kissed some other girl at the end of the night. If I have, the guy was at least smart enough to make sure I was gone first.

Anyways, I was trying to think of some other bad first date stories for this post but I don't have many bad first dates. Well, one, but that was entirely my fault. However, I do have many reasons for not continuing to see a guy.

If you are wondering where cheating is in the following list, no I didn't forget about it. I know @isaiditnowdeal is doing a post on that soon and I wouldn't want to steal his thunder. On purpose anyway ;)

So here it be. Seven things a guy can do to turn a girl off and/or end a relationship.

1) Smothering 

Most guys I know fall into one of two categories. They are just looking for the sex and aren't looking for a relationship, or they want all relationship all the time. I'm much more bothered by the latter.

Sometimes these guys are hard to spot. They start out perfectly normal -- taking you out every few days or so, calling about the same. And then, before you even realize how it happened, they've practically moved in. 

Don't get me wrong. I like a guy who wants to be with me. But I also need my space. I want to be able to go out with friends sometimes without the guy pouting because I'm not spending the night with him instead. PDA is ok when it's appropriate - holding my hand if we're taking a stroll on the waterfront just say - but not all the time. A guy that is too clingy in a bar or that needs to hold my hand the all night if we are out with friends makes me crazy -- not in a good way.  

This is the most common reason that I leave guys. The last guy I dated was like this. I could hardly ever finish a sentence without him kissing me. He wanted to cuddle ALL of the time. He needed to see me every day and got upset (passive-aggressively) if I went to do something else. All this despite me telling him upfront that I needed my space. 

Then one day I got up to go to the kitchen and he grabbed my hand to sit me back down. He said he wanted to be close to me. The next words out of my mouth were "Yeah, we need to talk...." End of relationship.

Most guys aren't this extreme. But this does happen a lot. And the minute I feel like I can't breathe I'm done.

2) Jealousy/Possessiveness

Where smothering is the most common reason I break up with someone, jealousy is easily the worst offense. I can't stand a jealous guy. For most other things on this list I might try and move past it. But this one is a dealbreaker. 

I'm not saying that a guy will never get jealous. It happens. Of course it happens. But it's all in how it's handled. @isaiditnowdeal said not long ago that he felt it was appropriate to hit a guy if he was hitting on his girlfriend and didn't get the "she's with me" message after a few attempts. Guess what? It's not. Not ever.

Guys, a girlfriend is not your property. You don't own her. Therefore, if a guy hits on your girlfriend, whether she knows him or not, it's up to that girl to let them know she has a boyfriend and is not interested. She can do it politely or not politely -- how she handles it is not your choice. As long as she does this you should be satisfied. Don't tell her you don't like the way she handled it (i.e. she weren't forceful enough, didn't make a big show that she's with you, etc.). 

You can also stay close by if you feel you need to, and support the girl if she asks for your help. Even make your presence known by putting your arm around her or buying her a drink (don't to the peacock thing, it's embarrassing) . But taking the first initiative without letting her respond or engaging in a fight is unacceptable. 

If you are jealous of a guy that is a close friend of hers, you need to...to put it bluntly...KEEP YOUR FUCKING MOUTH SHUT! I swear, I  say that to help and with all the good will I can muster.  

Even if you think the guy may like her or you don't like that they are close or whatever, being jealous of a friend is a surefire way to cause tension in a relationship. If you repeatedly bring it up it will only upset her and make her feel like she has to choose. If she chooses you, she will resent you and it will manifest in other ways...I promise you that. If she chooses to keep him as a friend instead being with you...well then you're fucked aren't you? Even if it's founded and the guy does like her, she chose to be with you. And you need to trust that. 

Another thing is that you DO NOT need to know where she is every minute of the day. I once had a guy who was so possessive that he went ballistic when I missed the bus after class and came home a half hour late. I MUST have been fucking another guy. I've had guys get mad if I don't respond to a text within 10 minutes. Guys who never wanted me to go out with friends. Even a guy who conveniently showed up at the bar I was going to with the girls just to keep an eye out. It will actually make me loathe you. And it will make the relationship pointless. If you can't trust, there's nothing there.

3) Bad Sex

I LOVE sex. It's important to me in a relationship. So if it's bad....well that just sucks. Royally. 

Most guys aren't bad in bed. There are a few guys who have absolutely rocked my world. But it doesn't have to be mind-blowing to have a successful relationship (though it is a huge bonus), especially in the beginning. It's something that can be worked on and adapted over time as long as there is clear communication in the relationship. 

However, twice in my lifetime I've encountered guys who are just terrible. TMI Alert: One guy I was with only thrust about every five seconds or so. Count to five and see how long it is. Yep. It was awful. The other guy was EXTREMELY selfish -- I could have been a blow up doll or his own hand for all he cared. Then he asked if it was good for me and told me how great it was. WTF?

Unfortunately for them, I want to have a great sex life. There are some girls out there where this just doesn't matter but for me it definitely does.

4)Distant

This is kind of the extreme opposite of smothering. I don't mind a guy going out with his friends -- like I mentioned, I'm not the jealous type and I need some space in a relationship. So this one really isn't about physical closeness. It's more about how I'm treated. 

If a guy doesn't put any effort into the relationship it's a problem. If they are never around, it's a problem. If a guy takes me out and acts like they're not with me I will make them suffer a hundred times over. That's a promise. 

I am by no means perfect but I am secure in myself. The guy I end up will be proud to be with me and will show it. They'll want to show me off and and to spend time with me. I'd never settle for less.

5) Unnecessarily Mean

Some guys are just mean. This can be as in mean to their girlfriends -- disrespectful, yell a lot, make them feel bad about themselves or anything like that. I did that before and I won't ever do it again. It's unacceptable for me and it should be for any woman. You deserve more from a guy and NOTHING is worth staying in a relationship like that. 

There is also the situation where the guy may be nice to you, but is still mean-spirited. I know a guy who is really hot and that I like a lot as a friend. We've been friends for a long time and he's taken me out to dinner. But I would never date him. When he gets drunk and he's a real dick. He'll make fun of people and become really obnoxious. Not cool. 

Another guy I went out with was just a bitter person. He complained about everything! His negativity drove me crazy and he often made fun of other people. When I found out he was homophobic it was the end. I don't tolerate hate or bullying.

6) Overly Insecure

Even though this can spawn jealously it's still a different thing. It's that guy that never feels like he is good enough...and feels like he constantly needs to remind you of that. 

I'm a pretty girl. I have a good job. Some guys just find that intimidating and that's ok. But for frigs sake, fake it till you make it! 

A guy who has low self-confidence and is always concerned about if I make more than him, if I'm too good for him, if I'm too pretty, is going to find himself in a self-fulling prophecy scenario. I'm attracted to confident guys. I don't mean conceited, I just mean someone who is comfortable with themselves and thinks they are every bit as deserving as the next person. A guy who reminds me constantly of his lack of confidence in himself is sure to turn me off.

7) The Job Factor

I'm a pretty open-minded person. There is not much that will preclude me from at least giving a guy a shot even if it's not destined to work out. However, in the famous words of Foxy Brown and Mya - YOU NEED TO HAVE A J.O.B IF YOU WANNA BE WITH ME!

I would love it if a guy made a ton of money and could fly me around the world. But I'd date a guy with pretty much any job. It's not the money that matters; it's that I am a hardworking person and need to see that in my partner. I am not about to support anyone unless we are in it for the long haul. I would never ask a guy to support me.

I don't date students unless they have a full-time job besides. If you are "temporarily" unemployed fine, call me when you are working. If you are a musician who plays in local pubs on weekends and rehearses the rest of the week in your buddy's basement, you DO NOT HAVE A FULL-TIME JOB - don't call me.

Sure there are other reasons relationships don't work out. And I know the title of this post is pretty sarcastic. But in all seriousness, most girls just want to be treated well and with respect.  And a girl should also treat the guy that way. If not, what the hell's the point?

Read the male perspective by @isaiditnowdeal